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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Dec 5, 2008 7:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: The "Flying" Sub explained (For WT, SDH, Jglynn, et al)

Obviously off-topic, so what. Apologies in advance for the length. Here goes....

WT's response post about flying subs (no, not like the SEAVIEW) the other day got me to thinking and I think I owe you guys a little background info.

Flying is a good analogy with a few exceptions. The first and major difference between air and water. No matter what we build a plane out of, it will always be heavier than air so it needs to provide its own thrust to generate lift. For simplicity we can ignore drag.

Quick review of the obviuos:
As long as a plane is moving fast enough to generate lift it stays up (self licking viagra ice cream cone I guess???? - whoa, focus) To change heading a plane must use control surfaces on the wings and tail to put a roll so the plane can turn. To change altitude a plane either uses control surfaces to change the pitch angle or slows down to reduce lift.

Now for a submarine - z axis first.
Since water is much denser than air, it is possible for a submarine to vary its submerged displacement to either float up, sink or be neutrally bouyant. So a submarine does not necessarily have to be moving to remain at depth. By establishing neutral buoynacy, they can literally hover. Variations in salinity, water temperature and depth cause variations in water density so neutral buoyancy changes from location to location. Periodically we would stop the boat to check our trim and see if we were neutrally buoyant - critical in the event of a loss of propulsion. What you wanted to see was no upward or downward movement and a zero angle on the ship. There are variable ballast tanks throughout the ship that we can move water to and from to affect the weight distribution. You could be neutrally buoyant but have a down angle on the boat because of 2000 pounds of water in the After Trim tank - a condition called OK overall, Heavy Aft. By pumping water from After Trim to Forward Trim we would set a zero angle. All of this is controlled by the Diving Officer - newly qualified DOs were routinely subjected to 'Trim Parties'. When a new guy was on his first watch, we would collect up 30-40 crew members and all head for the Torpedo Room. Once there we would call the officer of the Deck who would order up a 1/3 bell so the Dive could set his 1/3 trim. As the Dive was getting his trim and ship took on a near zero angle we would all run aft to the Engineroom and the ship would be heavy aft. This would go on for awhile until either the skipper put an end to it or as was more often the case since the CO was in on it, the new Diving Officer would throw up his hands and say to the Officer of the Deck, "Fuck it, you wanna 1/3 trim, you do it your damn self."

Here's where planes and subs are similar - we can also affect buoyancy (lift) by ship speed and the angle on the ship. At higher speeds, the fairwater planes (on the sail) can lift up or push down the boat. The higher the speed, the more weight you can carry. The angle on the ship could also generate positive buoyancy. Angle on the ship is primarily controlled by the stern planes back by the rudder (the classic cruciform). At speed, this was much more of an affect than the Fairwater planes. During high speed transits, it was essential for the crew to keep track of how much seawater they had brought onboard for the evaporator to make freshwater or how much waste water we had pumped overboard. That way, when we slowed, we were ideally close to a 1/3 trim. Nothing worse than transitting to get to someplace fast only to slow down and pop to the surface like a cork or sink out like a stone. depending on where you were, either could be really bad.

Now for heading - the ship is turned by the rudder (duh). Throwing the rudder over induces twisting forces on the ship and it turns left or right on the z axis. We are similar to planes in that the sub will initially roll away from the turn and then into it. Depending on speed, the roll can be significant - enough in some cases to where the stern planes have rotated enough into the horizontal axis to affect ship's heading and the rudder now acts as stern planes and the ship has a depth excursion. We didn't do that too often - mostly sea trials to figure out how the ship handled.

So there you have it. Subs fly underwater - sort of. Submariners just call it driving.

Tune in later for a lesson on why you should not use the toilet when the boat is blowing sanitary tanks.

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Poster: user unknown Date: Dec 5, 2008 9:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The 'Flying' Sub explained (For WT, SDH, Jglynn, et al)

Thanks Mando. Very informative, and interesting post.

"Could that result in someone literally losing their shit, along with a lower intestine? "..SDH

To say nothing of the world's biggest buttcheek hickie. Photobucket

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Dec 5, 2008 9:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The 'Flying' Sub explained (For WT, SDH, Jglynn, et al)

Cool

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Poster: jackstraw86 Date: Dec 5, 2008 1:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The 'Flying' Sub explained (For WT, SDH, Jglynn, et al)

Facinating post, Mando. I really enjoyed reading that.

Thanks!

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Poster: whirlwind dreamer 65-95 Date: Dec 5, 2008 1:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The 'Flying' Sub explained (For WT, SDH, Jglynn, et al)

mando must have been a hull tech or chief engineer for all those facts bout valves an pressure's. nice!!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 5, 2008 9:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The 'Flying' Sub explained (For WT, SDH, Jglynn, et al)

Very nice, MoJ; thanks so much for taking the time to post that. My partner, the submariner, and I were thrown together in physics in HS, well before his antics at USNA and with the fish thereafter, and to be honest, I was never very good at it (physics), but nonetheless love reading about it in "real world applications" like yours.

Thanks again.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Dec 5, 2008 9:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The 'Flying' Sub explained (For WT, SDH, Jglynn, et al)

Could that result in someone literally losing their shit, along with a lower intestine?

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Dec 5, 2008 9:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: The "Shit Shower" explained (since SDH asked.....)

Flow goes the other way.

When the sanitary tanks get full, they can be pumped or blown overboard. Pumping is noisy and takes longer - bad. Blowing is noisy, but much quicker - not so bad.

The tanks are pressurized to 10 pounds above sea pressure. For argument's sake, let's say we are at 200 feet. At .44 pounds per foot, sea pressure is about 90 pounds. We pressurize the tank with air to 100 psi. Then we open the hull valve on the bottom of the tank and whoosh, several thousand gallons of brown water goes overboard. The fish and shrimp love it - on sonar you can hear the snapping shrimp and carpenter fish go bat shit in the plume. Think about that the next time you order a shrimp cocktail.

Here's the inherent danger of this evolution. All of the heads (toilets) have a big ball valve on the bottom - when you are done with your business, you fill the bowl with a little flushing water (sea water) and open the ball valve. The sewage gravity drains into the san tank.

YOU CANNOT AND MUST NOT DO THIS WHEN BLOWING SANITARY TANKS OVERBOARD!!!!!!!!!!!

Signs are hung up in the heads to indicate that the sanitary tank is pressurized - "DANGER - BLOWING SANITARY TANKS, DO NOT OPERATE."

You can still use the head, you just aren't supposed to flush.

Once a week however, someone forgets - despite the big signs hung all over the boat. they do their business and then reach for the ball valve operator handle and whammo - they just created a vent path to atmospheric pressure. Given the choice, a 4" column of pressurized shit will ALWAYS take 14.7 psi over 90 psi. So now you have a 4" brown column coming at you with 100 psi backpressure.

It is, the proverbial "Shit Shower".

It has been tested countless times - you cannot get the valve shut fast enough. If I had to use the head while blowing sans, I would start chanting out loud "I will not flush, I will not flush" before entering the stall.

And in the finest of submarine traditions, regardless of your rank, if you blow a sanitary tank on yourself - you clean it up. Period. Does not matter if you are the CO or the most junior seaman on board. If you blow a shitter on yourself, get a bucket, sponge, iodine, soap, etc. and get cleaning.

There was one exception to this rule. We had a young petty officer on board who got violently seasick when the ship was on the surface. He would literally start vomiting when the lines were cast off. Once submerged he was one of the finest watchstanders and sailors I ever had work for me. We were in the Irish Sea headed to the dive point - the seas were typical - about 30 feet and the ship was rolling pretty good. The young lad was sick and in his rack. We decided to blow sans before we dove and were in the middle of the evolution when he crawled on his hands and knees from his bunk to the head to vomit. He crawled underneath the signs, into the stall, puked and with his head still in the bowl, flushed. He got hit in the face with a column of shit that went into his mouth, nose and sinuses and under his eyelids. Once we got him to sick bay and started on a two week antibiotic course, his shipmates went back and cleaned up the mess.

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Dec 5, 2008 12:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The 'Shit Shower' explained (since SDH asked.....)

Reminds me of the time I took a dump in the bidet. Well, I told the home owner I did. "Man that's a funny looking toilet you got there, only problem is that it flushes up!"

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 5, 2008 12:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The 'Shit Shower' explained (since SDH asked.....)

you mean the foot washer?

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Dec 5, 2008 12:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The 'Shit Shower' explained (since SDH asked.....)

Shouldn't let folks like us loose in the mansion.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Dec 5, 2008 12:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The 'Shit Shower' explained (since SDH asked.....)

Dayummmm. I thought it was a two person drinking fountain............

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Dec 5, 2008 9:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The 'Shit Shower' explained (since SDH asked.....)

So a very unpleasant enema if seated!

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Dec 5, 2008 9:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks for the warning about Flow

Flow goes the other way?

I am glad someone warned me. We are meeting tonight in SF and going to see Los Lobos. I wouldn't want to give him the wrong impression.


Seriously, the sub posts rock. Really interesting stuff.

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Dec 5, 2008 11:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks for the warning about Flow

Yell for Bertha!!!

Seriously!!

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Poster: high flow Date: Dec 5, 2008 11:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks for the warning about Flow

I'll be yelling for Viking. Do you remember Viking?

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 5, 2008 12:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks for the warning about Flow

don't miss david lindley! in other words, don't be "too cool for school" and miss the opener.

Last time I saw them together was El Rayo X and Los Lobos (w/ Dave Alvin) at Laguna Seca opening for the boys....

Los Lobos may be the most criminally underrated band around. Have a great night - it's guaranteed.

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Poster: high flow Date: Dec 5, 2008 12:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks for the warning about Flow

Hey BD - Thanks for the tip. I checked out his website and played a few of the samples......sounds fun.

However, I'll be meeting Lbo for some drinks and conversation, so we may miss part of the opener.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Dec 5, 2008 10:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks for the warning about Flow

Not the wrong impression, I'm sure, but isn't there something else you'ld like to give him?


Seriously, hope the show rocks

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Poster: high flow Date: Dec 5, 2008 10:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks for the warning about Flow

I've already met Johnny and Wineland....those guys survived.

Los Lobos will do their worst to Mr Lbo......I hope he can handle it. Good thing I'll be there to keep an eye on him.

Wish me luck!

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Dec 5, 2008 11:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks for the warning about Flow

yeah, he's actually allmost normal : )

Have a great time at the wolves. As I know you know, they're ALWAYS great.

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Poster: high flow Date: Dec 5, 2008 12:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks for the warning about Flow

Hey Johnny - It's practically 12/6. Enjoy.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Dec 5, 2008 1:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks for the warning about Flow

Damn! That's right. Thanks for the reminder. I just got that Charlie Miller upgrade not that long ago too

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Dec 5, 2008 10:32am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks for the warning about Flow

Just make sure no other appendage besides your eye is "kept on him".

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Dec 5, 2008 11:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks for the warning about Flow

And bring some elbow grease.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Dec 5, 2008 10:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks for the warning about Flow

yeah, looking forward to it. well off to the airport.....

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 5, 2008 11:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks for the warning about Flow

Whoaa--let me know if he still has game since McGlone and I have to get all the info we can on our opponents in this first electronic sports clash of the forumites if we ever get around to it.

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Poster: high flow Date: Dec 5, 2008 12:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks for the warning about Flow

Your goin' down old man! And yer little Canadian friend too!

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Dec 5, 2008 11:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Thanks for the warning about Flow

I will see what I can find out for you however, given what Mando told us I am not going one on one with him.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Dec 5, 2008 9:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The 'Shit Shower' explained (since SDH asked.....)

Thanks...I think...for the detailed and visually disturbing explanation.

Guess you do know your shit about subs.

Ba-da-boom.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Dec 5, 2008 9:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The 'Shit Shower' explained (since SDH asked.....)

Groan.........

Any ideas or wishes for the next submarining lesson topic?

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Dec 5, 2008 9:56am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The 'Shit Shower' explained (since SDH asked.....)

Found this little article:

Submarine Sanitation

With all of those people in such tight quarters, how do you maintain submarine sanitation? In a simple answer: it is hard to keep the submarine properly sanitized. Frequently people develop atomic toe rot while underway. For your own safety you should wear shower shoes. Many people do not actively set personal hygiene as any sort of priority. Half way through an underway, you will frequently find yourself instinctively reminded to take a deep breath in the bathroom (gross) before you walk into aft berthing. If they could take the scent of that but crack and foot funk and invert it, it would be the most amazing cologne on earth.

It is not just an issue of their own safety, but dirty people spread germs, especially while you hot rack with them. One time I had to hot rack with the stinkiest kid on the boat. I am by no means a clean freak, but some of these kids were so bad that the submarines doctor had to personally observe them shower. Imagine the embarrassment, these kids were treated as such; even worse, they had to shower.

Ok so lets say you never sleep and never have to go wake anybody up. Lets ignore the fact that some shipmates crapped in the urinal and shower. Surely then submarine sanitation must not be much of an issue. That is not true. In fact, it could not be any more false. The systems that are designed to get rid of the human waste and other submarine waste have to be aligned to do this properly. One kid alone managed to align the bathroom to receive instead of give around a half dozen times that I can remember. He was never punished though, because submarine sanitation is not an important issue.

Sometimes things go one step further, and come out of areas other than the bathroom. There is waste made from the meals, and the same place that we wash dishes in is where they prepare meals. If things are done improperly, bathroom can meet the meal. I have seen this before, and the thought alone is gross. Of course, the person at fault was not punished because little is expected of him and submarine sanitation was not a priority aboard the USS Dallas (SSN 700).


Somewhat pertinent. I like "bathroom can meet meal"

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Dec 5, 2008 10:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: "Bathroom Meets Meal"

Can't speak for conditions on DALLAS, my boat was clean. I'm inclined to think that the author took the nastiest events from his career and rolled them all up. Every crew has a sailor (or two) with an aversion to personal hygeine. In my first two boats we had "The Goob" and "Booger". Both guys were nasty - and in their case, peer pressure did not work. Both went to Captain's Mast (disciplinary judicial proceedings) and ended up under orders to shower every other day. They had to check with their Division Chief and the Doc before and after.

As far as hot racking with a slob - during command, I made sure every sailor had their own rack. I only had limited say as a junior officer, but hot racking was generally the exception rather than the rule. Typically the only time we had to hot rack was if we had riders on board for inspections or examinations.

As far as food prep and dishwashing meeting the bathroom - sort of.

The galley sinks and dishwasher are drained to grey water tanks (non sewage) along with the showers and sinks in the heads. I can't recall someone ever taking a dump in the shower (since you would have to stomp it through the drain grate with your foot) but I'm sure it happened.

It is possible to incorrectly line up the grey drain system so that there is back flow into the sinks, showers and galleys. It's not as bad as blowing a shitter on yourself, but whatever food is out is ruined - the meal is shot - and the cleanup is pretty extensive. This happened once during my command tour. I disqualified the offending sailor from watchstanding and had his chain of command come up with a training and requalification program. He was a good kid, he just made a mistake - but I made sure sailors on my boat understood that they would be held accountable for their actions - mistakes or otherwise. I was fair and consistent and my guys always knew what to expect. For the most part, I considered having to take disciplinary action with a sailor a failure on my part as well as his divisional and departmental chain of command - unless it was just gross, deliberate and culpable negligence or endangered his shipmates. Then I hammered the shit out of the kid. Fortunately I only had to do that four times in 24 years.